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Is this us starting now?
Well, we can.

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You know, let's start.

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Right.

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CLEARS THROAT

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This programme contains scenes which
some viewers may find disturbing
and very strong language

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What was the question?

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<font color="

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I'm waiting on you.

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My name is Terri Hooley,

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born and bred in Belfast,

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the centre of the universe.

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The centre of my universe, anyway.

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A lovely, lovely Belfast concert.

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In the '60s,
The Rolling Stones came.

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<font color="

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Jimi Hendrix.

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I met Jimi, great guy.

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Dylan came to Belfast in May '65,
was it?

20
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And I got my audience with Bob.

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Want a light then? Huh?

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<font color="
on the circuit.

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You know, you played Liverpool,
Belfast,

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Dublin, back to London.

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And then the Troubles came.

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<font color="

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my lovely city became divided.

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I really couldn't.

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Everything died.

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DOG BARKS

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Was there one event that really
sticks out for you, a moment like,

34
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"We're never getting it back?"

35
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<font color="
Bloody Friday.

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Bloody Friday.

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To see people with shovels

38
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shovelling up arms and legs
and putting them into bin bags.

39
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That was pretty disgusting,
so it was.

40
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I was going to buy a record,
<font color="

41
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And next thing...

42
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..a bomb went off near where I was
going to buy the record.

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MAN: Get back now.

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SCREAMING

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SCREAMING

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It's twenty past three
in the afternoon,

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<font color="
Belfast has been rocked

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by the biggest bombing offensive
seen in the city this year.

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All over the city,
plumes of smoke arose

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as explosions took place.

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EXPLOSION

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Bloody Friday, the worst ever
<font color="

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Nine people killed
and more than 130 injured.

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WOMAN: I do remember Bloody Friday.

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You heard a couple of bombs go off
and you seen the puff of smoke

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and you sort of went, "Right,"
and then you carried on playing.

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<font color="

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You went, "Another one?"

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You carried on playing,
then there was another one.

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You know, and you're sort of going,
"Oh, you know,

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"this is different."

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TV: Bombs exploded every minute
<font color="

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in busy shopping areas
and a crowded bus terminal.

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I was actually seven
when Bloody Friday happened.

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The sky was black.

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It was like a scene from hell.

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And you could even smell
the acrid smell of the bombs.

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<font color="

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It was indiscriminate.

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Anyone, Catholic, Protestant,
whatever,

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could have become a victim.

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Neighbours, those who had TVs,

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the pictures started coming in.

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Horrible scenes, horrific scenes.

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<font color="
the worst incidents of all.

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The bus station was crowded

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when a bomb went off
without warning.

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It didn't seem real,
what I was seeing on TV.

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Felt like another place.

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<font color="

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It was...it was frightening.

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It was very frightening.

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Certainly the elders
in the community were saying,

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"This is an attack on us.
They're attacking Protestants."

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How did you feel about the IRA
<font color="

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That they were awful people,

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to do that.

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You couldn't look at those pictures
and not be...

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..horrified by what you saw.

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I was in the IRA,

91
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but wasn't involved
in Bloody Friday.

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<font color="

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I'd seen it on the news
like everyone else.

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And that's the truth.

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You couldn't justify it.

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Catholics as well as Protestants
were blown up on that day.

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It was awful, fucking awful,

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all those poor people
<font color="

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It was fucking not just awful,
it was embarrassing.

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And is there, is there more emotion
in there,

101
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rather...other than
just embarrassment?

102
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Is there... Is there conflict
in there for you

103
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,160
<font color="

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At... Even now or at the time?

105
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Well, there is now,
of course there is.

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At the time...

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I was 17 and 18,

108
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I was full of revolutionary vigour,

109
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and it was just
a balls...a balls-up.

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<font color="
being in the IRA?

111
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No.

112
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But...

113
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..the whole tone of the war

114
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seemed to deteriorate
after Bloody Friday.

115
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It seemed to be a direction-changer

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into a very dark place.

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You know.

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<font color="
with combatting the British Army.

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But as things developed,

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it was republicans
who were sectarian.

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And I mean, that's...

122
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..that's indisputable, right?

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I mean, there was Protestants killed

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<font color="
that they were Protestants.

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MARCHING

126
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I didn't understand, you know,

127
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exactly what had happened
on Bloody Friday,

128
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but I knew my community,
my people, my city

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was being attacked again by the IRA.

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<font color="
I remember all the adults,

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it was palpable hatred and anger,
you know what I mean?

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Rest in the Lord,

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and wait patiently for him.

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Fret not myself because of him
who prospereth in his way,

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<font color="
who bringeth wicked devices.

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Ordinary peace-loving people

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were queuing up to join
loyalist paramilitaries.

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That galvanised support
for loyalist paramilitaries.

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We needed to fight back
and this was our army.

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<font color="

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TV: It sounds like
a modern mafia,

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but the UDA,
the Ulster Defence Association,

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ostensibly exists
as a military force.

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50,000 strong -

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the biggest private army
<font color="

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Well, we intend to see that
the terrorists are stopped.

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The security forces have obviously
failed to stop them.

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We have no alternative but to try
and stop them ourselves.

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This we will try to do.

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<font color="
is the beginning of

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the Protestant backlash
and is a warning to the IRA.

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The UDA started out in Belfast,

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right, up the Shankill Road.

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Some of the men got together
trying to protect their areas.

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<font color="
on Friday night,

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the men would
patrol round the estate.

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BANGING AND WHISTLING

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They were vigilantes.

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I was one of them.

160
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My name's James Greer.

161
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I was 17 when I joined the UDA.

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<font color="

163
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But you got a gun when you were 17?

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I was in charge of guns
when I was 17.

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I have a granddaughter of 17,
by the way,

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and I could not imagine
handing her a gun.

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I could not imagine
<font color="

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other than a strawberry fucking
milkshake, to be honest.

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But anyway...

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Did not have a great home life.

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I was probably regarded
as the low-hanging fruit,

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and people were whispering
in my ear, you know,

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<font color="

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"we're going to be
trampled under the ground."

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And I'm thinking,

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"I don't want anybody tramping me
under the ground."

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So I found myself, you know,
with my hand on the Bible

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<font color="
in this hand,

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and a guy holding a pre-prepared
statement in front of my face.

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And I'm reading it off that
I swear to this and I swear to that

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and I swear to the other thing
for God and Ulster,

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00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,120
<font color="
it's the will of God -

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God has to be in there too.

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And, is…

185
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,360
..there I was in the UDA.

186
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I swear on my life...

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I swear on my life...

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..that I will defend
my appointed district...

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<font color="
my appointed district...

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..against any invaders.
..against any invaders.

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It's all very serious.

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These guys are sitting behind
the counter and you know yourself

193
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these guys don't mess around.

194
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<font color="
fucking going to kill a pussycat.

195
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They'd fucking cut your throat
as quick as they'd look at you.

196
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But what I didn't know
that particular night

197
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and didn't learn until months
afterwards that I'd joined the UFF.

198
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<font color="

199
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In those early days

200
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you were not even allowed to mention
the UFF either,

201
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because the UFF
was a military organisation

202
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,200
that done a lot of atrocities.

203
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It's like joining the Mafia,

204
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,000
<font color="
the same idea.

205
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At the start it's all very well,
you know,

206
00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,000
you're sort of doing
stupid things like hijacking

207
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,520
and stuff like that.

208
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,480
You know, then it goes on to
more serious things.

209
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,240
<font color="
"Go down there

210
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,280
"and shoot that fucker there,
would you?"

211
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,720
You know, and then it's sort
of a position when you can't say no.

212
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,560
You know? You're in.

213
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,480
You're in, you're in there.

214
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,480
<font color="
the workers in the...

215
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,560
A lot of people would say
the paramilitaries

216
00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:20,960
were horrible, awful people

217
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,240
and Northern Ireland
would be a wonderful place

218
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,760
if they all went away.

219
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,240
But they weren't parachuted in
<font color="

220
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,080
They didn't land from
an alien planet, you know?

221
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,560
They were brothers, they were
uncles, they were fathers.

222
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,400
They were my friends' fathers.

223
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,760
And they weren't bad people.

224
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,000
They weren't horrible people.
<font color="

225
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,360
But why did they do those things?

226
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,560
TV: On either side of Shankill Road

227
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,240
all are Protestant.

228
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,000
On either side of Falls Road

229
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,360
all are Catholic.

230
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,360
Catholic, Protestant, Catholic,

231
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,240
Protestant, Catholic.

232
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,880
<font color="
like you on the Protestant side

233
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,200
to meet and make friends
with boys on the Catholic side?

234
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,440
Because they don't want
to make friends with us.

235
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,280
There's times where we can't
walk up the road,

236
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,120
<font color="

237
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,680
We get a hiding, nothing's done
about it.

238
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,320
Well, do you want to make friends
with them? No.

239
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,800
Do not.

240
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,000
If you live in a segregated
community,

241
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,480
you're growing up in ignorance.

242
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,760
<font color="

243
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,000
And hate begets hate
begets violence.

244
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,960
And that's what we did
to each other here.

245
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,560
ARCHIVE: In Belfast, the protection
of the military is called for

246
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:46,160
to get children safely to school
<font color="

247
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,560
Their school uniform clearly marks
them as the enemy to the Catholics

248
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,280
on the other side of Crumlin Road.

249
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,160
I have a legal shotgun.

250
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,240
And should I have to carry it
up the Crumlin Road?

251
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,440
I do so to protect my child

252
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,560
<font color="
the liberty to walk on British soil.

253
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,680
She was born British,
and British she'll remain

254
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:04,480
till she dies and I die with her.

255
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,480
What about going on another road
rather than the Crumlin, Mary?

256
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,920
<font color="

257
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,720
The Crumlin's ours
and it's going to stay Protestant.

258
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,280
Aren't you afraid of the stones?

259
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,520
No, I'm not

260
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,720
because if I get hit with one,
I'd throw it back.

261
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,160
That's right, love.

262
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,760
<font color="

263
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,120
I'll help you, love.

264
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,760
What if it's worse than stones?

265
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,760
Well, what if it is?

266
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,720
Can't WE get bottles
and make petrol bombs too?

267
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,280
Good for you, love,
and we'll help you to make them.

268
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,280
You only mix with people
<font color="

269
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,240
The other side is portrayed

270
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,240
in your head and songs you sing
in the bar as the enemy.

271
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,320
And they are, you know,
in your head,

272
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,560
this horrible hatred is built up.

273
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:50,360
Bow your heads.

274
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,200
Even something as
<font color="

275
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,240
we used to make our own songs up
about...

276
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,400
The one "Give me oil in my lamp,"

277
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,240
we'd sing,
"Give me bullets in my gun,

278
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,800
"keep it firing,
give me bullets in my gun,

279
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,800
"I pray, give me bullets in my gun
<font color="

280
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:05,960
"the members of the IRA."

281
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,520
CHEERING

282
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,920

hosanna to the King of kings...

283
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,720
This is the Shankill Road,
the heartland of loyalism.

284
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,320
Where my heart and soul was forged.

285
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,240
<font color="

286
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,720
Our whole world, our whole
environment was dictated to by,

287
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,440
you know, being loyalists and
Protestant and hating Catholics.

288
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,600
You know what I mean? It was in our
DNA from birth to hate Catholics.

289
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,160
We hated them with a passion,
<font color="

290
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,480
Every minute of our day
we despised them

291
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,400
and we wanted to see them suffer.

292
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,200
And I know that is harsh.

293
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,480
You know, I mean,
looking at it now it's crazy.

294
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,080
But when you're born in
that tribal environment

295
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,480
<font color="
by the Troubles,

296
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,680
they were our enemies,
you know what I mean?

297
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,720
There was no getting away from that.

298
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,400
It's an ingrained survival strategy.

299
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,600
We can tell just by looking
at someone

300
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,080
<font color="

301
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:08,720
And I remember doing that myself

302
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,320
when growing up as a kid
when I was in Belfast City Centre.

303
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,320
We always thought they were smelly,
so we did,

304
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,160
and we just knew,
"He looks like a Catholic."

305
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,800
<font color="
I'm coming across as a mad, bigoted,

306
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,920
sectarian,
Catholic-hating madman here.

307
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,960
HE LAUGHS

308
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480
But what I'm talking about is,
you know, that environment

309
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,560
that I grew up when I was young,
know what I mean,

310
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,200
<font color="
years, hopefully I'll be able

311
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,440
to explain that my attitudes have
changed, you know.

312
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,880
You've gone on a journey, John.

313
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,160
Yeah, exactly. It's partway in.

314
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,560
Right, OK.

315
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,680
It doesn't...it doesn't end
<font color="

316
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,320
Yeah.

317
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,440
My name is John Chambers.

318
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,200
I was born and bred in Belfast.

319
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,240
I'm a peace-loving loyalist.

320
00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,960
And... Let me start that again.

321
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:01,320
HE LAUGHS

322
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,400
That's good.

323
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,400
I sound as if I'm on a game show.

324
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:05,800
<font color="

325
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,480
My earliest memory is in hospital.

326
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:09,920
Um, I was in hospital quite a bit

327
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,800
when I was younger,
I had a bone disease.

328
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,760
Gradually my mum stopped visiting me

329
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,880
and I thought,
"That's a bit bizarre," you know.

330
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,920
<font color="
up to this point.

331
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,080
And then my grandmother sat us down
one day and she said, you know,

332
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,840
"I've got some news to tell you."

333
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,560
And we were like, "What?"
And she's like,

334
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,160
"I'm afraid your mum's died.
<font color="

335
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,600
You know, it's harsh,
but I didn't even miss her.

336
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,280
I know that sounds bad,

337
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,040
but because my grandmother was
taking such an active role

338
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,840
in our upbringing,
she was my mother,

339
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,120
basically, and my grandmother
<font color="

340
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,240
and I didn't miss having a mother
until I was much older

341
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,120
and learned the truth.

342
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,080
What is this place?

343
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,200
This is Glencairn.

344
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,600
This is where we moved,
late sixties, early seventies.

345
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,160
And our house was just here.

346
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,040
<font color="
and my siblings.

347
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,560
The house is where the bonfire is.

348
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,360
Right where the bonfire is, yeah.
That was our house.

349
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,920
Glencairn is a great place
to live, you know what I mean?

350
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,200
As kids, we loved it, so we did.

351
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,040
<font color="

352
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:16,880
It was a brand-new estate,
but it was an ultra loyalist estate,

353
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,240
you know. Loyalists controlled
every aspect of it.

354
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,240
What is a loyalist?

355
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,040
JOHN LAUGHS

356
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,240
Er, good question.

357
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,040
<font color="

358
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,240
a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant,
basically.

359
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,800
We're more British than the British,
you know what I mean?

360
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,880
Prouder, should I say,
than the British to be British.

361
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,840
Do you know they still stand
<font color="

362
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,480
All loyalists from Protestant clubs,
at the end of the night,

363
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,880
no matter how drunk or stoned
or wasted that you are,

364
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,280
when they play the Queen,
you have to stand up and salute.

365
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,800
If you don't do it, you're going
<font color="

366
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,280
They take it very seriously.

367
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,520
TV ANNOUNCER: That brings us to the
end of our programmes on BBC One.

368
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,360
And I remember as a child, the BBC
every night used to play the Queen

369
00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,560
at the end of night, and we used
<font color="

370
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,280
and salute the Queen
when they played it.

371
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,360
TV: For all of us here at
Broadcasting House,

372
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,920
wishing you goodnight.

373
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,880
We were that fanatical, you know,
we took it that seriously.

374
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,160
<font color="

375
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,040
Me mammy, she would go,

376
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,960
"Jim, knock that TV off now.

377
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,000
"Jim!

378
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,480
"I told you to knock it off."

379
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,880
That national anthem
and that flag...

380
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,400
Just can't.

381
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,760
It means more to me than
<font color="

382
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,240
because it's one of the things, too,

383
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,240
that would have probably been on the
uniforms of the soldiers, you know,

384
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,520
even should it be small, it's there.

385
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,480
It's, "I'm your oppressor.

386
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,560
"I'm the one that's keeping
you down."

387
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,720
<font color="
I'm not saying like...

388
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,600
..that, as I was growing up,
I didn't sort of, you know...

389
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,320
..sometimes see soldiers
and think,

390
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,320
"Mm, he's nice looking."

391
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,560
Because that is what happened to me
one day coming from school.

392
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,720
<font color="
of the school gates

393
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,200
and I was walking home with friends

394
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,080
and stopped by the soldiers.

395
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,080
"OK, could we know your name?"

396
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,080
"Where are you coming from?"

397
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,760
I'm like, "You're seriously
asking me where I'm coming from?

398
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,480
<font color="

399
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,840
"I'm wearing my uniform.
What, are you stupid or something?"

400
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,960
And while I'm being all, you know,

401
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,560
feisty and all this carry on,

402
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,160
the fella that was actually
asking me the questions,

403
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,480
he was a good looking dude.

404
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,400
<font color="

405
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,560
"You're lovely."

406
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,680
And then I'm like, "Oh, Jesus, no.
Get yourself in check."

407
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,920
And literally had to think, "It
doesn't matter how good looking

408
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,000
"that...or gorgeous that boy is,
he's the enemy."

409
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,760
<font color="

410
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,320
I understood the rules, aye.

411
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,480
And you understood what happened
if you broke them?

412
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,640
Mm.

413
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,400
Oh, Jesus, yeah.

414
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,280
DISCO MUSIC PLAYS

415
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,160
ARCHIVE: These scenes are
a remarkable contrast

416
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,800
<font color="
attitudes.

417
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,160
Here Catholic and Protestant girls
risk very unpleasant reprisals

418
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,160
to dance with British soldiers
in a makeshift disco

419
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,400
inside the Army barracks.

420
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,120
You're both Catholic girls
<font color="

421
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,640
with British soldiers.

422
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,520
Isn't that a dangerous thing to do
in your circumstances?

423
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,080
It is, yes.

424
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,800
But we still take the risk.

425
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,200
We think it's worth it.

426
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,040
What do you think about the
<font color="

427
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,560
Of course we like them very much.

428
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,760
You get to really do like them

429
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,560
when they start coming to the disco.

430
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,360
DOG BARKS

431
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,040
Soldier dolls.

432
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,200
That was the known term for them.

433
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,640
This is the lamppost where

434
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,440
<font color="
last night

435
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,560
and jeered at by women and others,

436
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,600
after she'd had her head shaved

437
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,040
and she'd been tarred and feathered
all over her head...

438
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,000
..all because she'd been going out
with a British soldier.

439
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,640
<font color="
for the longest while

440
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,840
so that people could get
a good look at them,

441
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,280
totally shaming them
and humiliating them

442
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,600
and marking them
within the community -

443
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,800
this is...this is somebody
<font color="

444
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,400
You were not only bringing shame
on yourself,

445
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,680
you were bringing it on the family.

446
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,000
What would you do if you found

447
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,000
your daughter going out
with a British soldier?

448
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,200
I would hand her out to the women
<font color="

449
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,520
Are you in favour of tarring
and feathering?

450
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,840
Wholeheartedly, yes,
I am in favour of it.

451
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,320
Are you in favour of it?

452
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,520
Definitely, yes.

453
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,440
And me, definitely.
You are in favour of it?

454
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,240
<font color="

455
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,560
I do wrestle with it myself because,
you know, I had moments of my life

456
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,360
where I was completely in support
of the paramilitaries, you know,

457
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:11,080
because I felt that
they were my protector.

458
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,480
But also at the same time they were

459
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,480
<font color="
their own people,

460
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,040
that's the ultimate form of control,
keeping everybody

461
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,680
within their boundaries
and within their tribe.

462
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800
They could be the good AND the bad.

463
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,400
The very bad.

464
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,280
Mm.

465
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,480
<font color="
was kidnapped from her home

466
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,320
here in the Davis Flats complex
on Belfast's Lower Falls Road.

467
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,400
On the evening of December 7th,

468
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120
four women entered the home
of Mrs Jean McConville,

469
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,240
told her family that their mother
<font color="

470
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,840
and then left with her.

471
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,240
Mrs McConville never returned home.

472
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,600
My name is Michael McConville.

473
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,760
I'm the son of Jean McConville,

474
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,360
and my mother was taken

475
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,160
from us by the IRA in 1972.

476
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,880
Is...

477
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,600
<font color="
this here, to be honest with you.

478
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Just seeing how young
everybody was, you know?

479
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Is...

480
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,400
So this one here is me.

481
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,600
Dervi, Elizabeth.

482
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,480
My father was a Catholic,

483
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,040
my mother was a Protestant.

484
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,440
<font color="

485
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,240
it's a mixed marriage.

486
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080
And in 1970
we moved into the Divis Flats.

487
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,280
ARCHIVE: At the end of the Falls
Road is Divis Flats,

488
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,240
a citadel of 10,000 Catholics.

489
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,800
Divis Flats are a stronghold
<font color="

490
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,160
a stone fortress that gave them
both cover and escape routes

491
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,520
in their war against
the British Army.

492
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480
My dad wasn't well for a good while.

493
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,640
He had cancer, so he had.

494
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,960
When he died, I thought that was the
<font color="

495
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,640
what could ever happen to me
and my brothers and sisters.

496
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,600
Little did I know that nine months
later

497
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,520
we'd have lost our mother as well.

498
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,440
How would you describe him,
your dad?

499
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,880
<font color="

500
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,240
Brave,

501
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,600
courageous,

502
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,720
caring.

503
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,200
Funny.

504
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Loving.

505
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,000
And just really a heart of gold.

506
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,160
He's a kind wee soul, so he is,

507
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,680
who's just had...

508
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,080
<font color="
in his life.

509
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,760
He wouldn't let anyone go through
what he had to go through.

510
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,560
No matter what,

511
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,200
if I told him that something
may have happened to me,

512
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,880
I always knew that he would
protect me from that.

513
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,560
<font color="
to feel, do you know?

514
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,000
Where do you think that stems from?

515
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,480
Mm...

516
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,640
Is,

517
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760
probably from my granny
getting taken away.

518
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,520
MICHAEL: There was a shooting going
on that night

519
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,200
<font color="
and the British soldiers.

520
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,080
And a soldier was injured

521
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,560
and my mother went to his aid.

522
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,640
Who was he, was he a...?
He was a British soldier

523
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,080
and, is,

524
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,680
she tried to help him.

525
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,320
Show an act of kindness
<font color="

526
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,240
But, is,

527
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,720
the people of Divis Flats
didn't see it that way.

528
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,480
When I say the people of the
Divis Flats

529
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,600
the IRA of the Divis Flats
didn't see it that way.

530
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,040
They sent someone round to write

531
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,880
<font color="

532
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,600
while we were all sleeping.

533
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,120
"Brit lovers" or
"Get out or else, soldier lovers".

534
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,760
I can't just remember what it was,
but it was one of them slogans

535
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,240
what they had across the front
of the flat.

536
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,760
<font color="
our mother away.

537
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,320
I knew something bad was going to
happen,

538
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,720
I didn't realise at the time

539
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,240
that they were going to murder
my mother.

540
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,000
We had no parents,

541
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,680
we really had no-one
<font color="

542
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,800
Don't get me wrong, there was a lot
of good people in the Divis Flats,

543
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,080
so there was,

544
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,320
and I would say they probably
were scared.

545
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,840
What were they scared of?

546
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,400
They were scared of the IRA.

547
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,760
There was nothing else.

548
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,760
<font color="
because the IRA didn't agree

549
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,520
with it. So they ruled
and they ruled with an iron fist.

550
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800
Squeeze, one, two, release,
squeeze, one, two, release.

551
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,200
That gives you a burst of three
or four rounds at a time.

552
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,840
<font color="
or question an order?

553
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,880
In those days? Yes. No.

554
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,000
You wouldn't have done that,
like, it was, you know...

555
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,160
That could have cost you your life.

556
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,560
And that was made pretty plain,
<font color="

557
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,160
Sergeant Major, you'll take
number two patrol tonight.

558
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:34,400
When I was asked to do things,

559
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,880
I can remember, you know,

560
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,040
the excitement,

561
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520
the butterflies in the stomach...

562
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,560
..like it was yesterday,
and that becomes addictive.

563
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,800
<font color="
That adrenaline, maybe...

564
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,600
..rush that you get
because you're living on the edge...

565
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,640
..you know?

566
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,840
That day was
a day like any other day.

567
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,000
The Thursday,
five days after my 19th birthday.

568
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,120
<font color="
to eat, went out and had a pint.

569
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,120
And then me and my friend,
we were approached by two men

570
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,360
and these guys said,
"Come with us.

571
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,480
"We're going to do such and such
and such and such

572
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,680
<font color="
and such and such."

573
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,720
When you say "such and such
and such and such..."

574
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,600
Aye, that's what they call
redactions.

575
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,320
See, if your paper, scribble across
it, "Oh, it's a redacted statement."

576
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,040
<font color="

577
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,520
I am fucking not going to tell you
any more than

578
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,520
such and such and such and such.

579
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,520
But we went to this place,
which was a such and such place

580
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,080
and I met up
with the senior officer,

581
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200
<font color="
that I had to do

582
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,480
and said, "Right, get on with it."

583
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,120
What was on that list?

584
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,440
Where to plant the device,

585
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,120
what I was looking for
before I planted the device,

586
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,080
and...

587
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,360
..sort of specifics about time

588
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,920
<font color="

589
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,560
So you knew it was a bomb, then?

590
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,000
Yeah.

591
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,320
Mm-hm.

592
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,720
How did you feel?

593
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,840
I just... That was just a Thursday,
type of thing.

594
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,680
That sounds a wee bit blase, like.

595
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,240
The seventies was an awful time.

596
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,280
<font color="
So I was in the middle.

597
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,600
I was in the thick of that.
So somebody said to me,

598
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,520
"You're going to go and be planting
this device here." You know,

599
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,560
he might as well have said, "Do you
want a cup of tea?" Like it was...

600
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,760
<font color="

601
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,560
I just said, "OK, right.
That's it, no problem.

602
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,800
"Get on with."

603
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,920
It was primed,

604
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,440
and it was myself and another guy.

605
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,480
So I said, "Right, go in there
and do that

606
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,480
"and set it there
<font color="

607
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,160
And he says, "OK, no problem."

608
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,840
And he took about...

609
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,400
..I don't know, maybe five
or six steps and it ignited.

610
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400
All I can remember was
like a big white ball,

611
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,640
and I was unsighted.

612
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,120
I remember going...

613
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,320
<font color="
it was pissing out of me,

614
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,280
but I was all there, you know.

615
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,240
What injuries did your friend get?

616
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,720
Lost his arm.

617
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,160
Why did it go off?

618
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,760
Premature explosion, just.

619
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,160
There's...

620
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,280
..any God's amount of reasons,
<font color="

621
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,600
And then the Army were everywhere.

622
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,640
They were on top of us,
they were waiting on us.

623
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,320
Can I ask, were you...

624
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,320
..were you willing,

625
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,960
were you willing to kill someone?

626
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,120
Yes.

627
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,800
That's why I was there.

628
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,760
<font color="
I will kill people.

629
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,400
And that is not even a challenge
to me.

630
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,600
You know,
it's part of what I signed up for.

631
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,480
You went from being...

632
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,840
..a normal teenager to being someone
that was willing to murder?

633
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,400
<font color="

634
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,840
Mm.

635
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,400
Yeah.

636
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,720
You know, looking at me now

637
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,720
that I am
right out of my comfort zone.

638
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,240
Yeah. Mean.

639
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,280
You've taken me to a bad place,
James.

640
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,320
Sorry.

641
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520
<font color="
you know what I mean?

642
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,880
It just takes you to a bad place,
you know, that you don't

643
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,760
really feel comfortable with.

644
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,960
But at the same time,
because you're not comfortable,

645
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,800
it doesn't mean that it's not there.

646
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,120
<font color="

647
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,160
the things that make me
uncomfortable

648
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,840
because they're important.

649
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,560
You know.

650
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Are we going to get another cup
of tea here? Yeah, sure.

651
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,240
Fancy one now?
<font color="

652
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,160
I would kill you for a cup of tea.

653
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,000
You're always aware that, you know,
a bomb could go off at any time

654
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,760
in the city centre
or anywhere throughout Belfast.

655
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,080
The security presence was always
very prominent, you know.

656
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320
<font color="
with a gun within eyesight.

657
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,120
So you're always cautious,
know what I mean?

658
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,400
And, you know, you could see it
in people's faces,

659
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,880
you know, the suspicion
and the fear.

660
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,680
You know, I mean,
<font color="

661
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,960
From my earliest age,
Belfast was a no-parking zone.

662
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,680
You couldn't park
your unattended car in town.

663
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,120
So my mum would keep me off school

664
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,600
so I could sit in the car while
she did her shopping, you know,

665
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,800
<font color="
unattended vehicle

666
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,840
within the city centre. It might
have been a car bomb, so somebody

667
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,320
had to be in the passenger seat.

668
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,000
Or when you came back, the street
would be completely cleared

669
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,880
and your car would be on fire.

670
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,640
<font color="

671
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,720
What my mum did was put her big,
fat, school kid in the...

672
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:40,320
..just get in the passenger seat
with a bag of crisps

673
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,080
and a bottle of Coke and a comic,

674
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,240
and I'd be sitting there happy
for hours!

675
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:46,760
<font color="
I got the day off school.

676
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,320
Move over to the right there.

677
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,760
When the bombing started happening

678
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,840
then the businesses were complaining

679
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,560
then they built a ring of steel...

680
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,480
..round the city centre
to stop people getting bombed.

681
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,800
<font color="
round the whole of the city

682
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,560
centre, and it was just something
that was part of your life.

683
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,920
I think it probably looks
like a bomb scare.

684
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Is it? How many times has this
happened here?

685
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,240
<font color="
Has there ever actually been a bomb?

686
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,000
Oh, yes, yes.

687
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,680
Do you get fed up with it?

688
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,640
No, it's just a way of life.

689
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,920
The whole life of the city had been
sucked out of it.

690
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,680
All the nightlife was gone.

691
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,440
<font color="
leaving the country.

692
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,760
I should think all the poets,
the painters and the performers

693
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,400
of music all just got up and left.

694
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,800
It was pretty scary.

695
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,880
FIRE CRACKLES

696
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,320
There are places in Belfast where
<font color="

697
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,640
that I feel very uncomfortable
walking past.

698
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,160
Like Direct Wine Sales is
in the old building where I used

699
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,640
to work for Kodak, and I came out
one night and three gunmen

700
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,360
tried to grab me in the car

701
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,360
<font color="
they jumped in and saved my life

702
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,920
and I managed to get away.

703
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,440
That had happened to friends of mine
and they weren't seen again,

704
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,800
they were tortured.

705
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,400
I just thought, "Well, I'm going
to do something that I really want

706
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,280
<font color="

707
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,680
And that was when I decided
I was going to set up a record shop.

708
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:31,280
It's an old building and we needed
to put windows in it and stuff.

709
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,040
And I decided we'd have a party
in it on a Sunday night.

710
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,400
So I painted up the toilet.

711
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,600
<font color="
of red paint and painted

712
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:44,920
the toilet seat red

713
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,680
because we couldn't
have young ladies coming round

714
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,720
and not having a decent toilet.

715
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:51,680
So that was my first priority.

716
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,520
And then we set up a music system
<font color="

717
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,040
And we had a great party.

718
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,240
Terri's shop became a focal point.

719
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,800
It became a social thing to do,
and Terri loved that there.

720
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,040
You know, I went down to the shop,
you know, and met Terri

721
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,800
for the first time
and fucking loved him.

722
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,640
<font color="

723
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,920
It just gradually,
slowly but surely, built up

724
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,760
a bit of a reputation.

725
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,240
Then people started to come
from all over Northern Ireland

726
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,240
to the shop, so they did.

727
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:26,000
But it was a great way
<font color="

728
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,280
Protestant and Catholics.

729
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,000
Nobody gave a shit.

730
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Good Vibrations was a little oasis
in a sea of madness.

731
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,080
We have a body in the entry
behind us

732
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,760
and that body
has severe head injuries.

733
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,200
<font color="

734
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,880
It was discovered this morning
by two passers-by.

735
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,720
It's assumed he set off
late at night to find a taxi

736
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,480
in the Falls Road and instead
became the random victim

737
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,160
of loyalist terrorists.

738
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,600
Everyone was scared
<font color="

739
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,880
They were bogeymen.
We all feared them.

740
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,480
So many people were killed during
those days, but these were brutal.

741
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,000
They haunted my dreams.

742
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,680
To me, this is gruesome.

743
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,040
This is inhuman. Bestial.

744
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,280
<font color="

745
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,560
What the Butchers used to do is get
a taxi and drive around Catholic

746
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,200
areas so the people
just flagged down the taxi.

747
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,360
And the minute they got in
they'd be attacked

748
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,400
by the Shankill Butchers and
<font color="

749
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,760
Cut with knives,
have their teeth pulled out.

750
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,000
Absolutely brutal violence.

751
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,040
And they'd dump the bodies right
beside where I lived.

752
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,880
One morning we were going to school.
I was about 11 at the time.

753
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,040
<font color="
the community centre,

754
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,040
I could see the shape of a body
lying there.

755
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,920
There was loads of blood
all around it, so there was.

756
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,200
It had a profound effect on me
because I was such an innocent young

757
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,800
<font color="
you know, I mean, cast aside

758
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,480
like a piece of meat
and butchered like that.

759
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,240
Our children are coming in
from school and from their play

760
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,840
and telling us that there are
men's heads lying in the gutter.

761
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,200
<font color="
and they're coming in and saying,

762
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,960
"Mummy, look that's that dead man's
blood on my foot."

763
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,800
And we think that it's terrible

764
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,680
that children in this day and age
should be coming in and telling us

765
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,880
<font color="
playing and enjoying themselves

766
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,920
like we had.

767
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,080
I used to play at the bottom
of the estate.

768
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,480
When I was walking home

769
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,360
if I heard the sound of a black
taxi, a diesel-engine taxi,

770
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,520
<font color="
I used to panic.

771
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,320
I used think, "It's the Butchers,"
and I'd be terrified.

772
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,000
Even though I was Protestant,
I was living in a Protestant estate,

773
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,960
I'd grab a stick or a plank of wood
or something and hide behind a bush

774
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,200
<font color="

775
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,440
I used to be freaking out
cos just say they stop

776
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,160
and they pull someone out and
they're killing them in front of me

777
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,600
and I see them killing them,
then they're going to kill me.

778
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,920
You know, there was that fear
<font color="

779
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,240
And my dad was outraged
at these killings, so he was.

780
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,920
I mean, to him this is not
what loyalism was all about.

781
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,360
Can I ask about your dad?

782
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,720
I find it hard talking about my dad.
Do you?

783
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:23,520
Give me a sec. Yeah.

784
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,320
<font color="

785
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:28,960
Ten. Ten.

786
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Ten.

787
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,680
He had cancer and my dad's death
hit me like a sledgehammer,

788
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,560
where my mum's death didn't
really hit me cos I didn't

789
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,400
have that relationship with her,
<font color="

790
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,440
And I wasn't used to having
her around, where my dad

791
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,240
had been a constant presence
in my life. And it was decided

792
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,920
that we'd go and live with various
aunties and uncles.

793
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,360
So that was the end of our family
<font color="

794
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,040
So life went on, you know what I
mean? I was living with my Uncle Rob

795
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,240
and my auntie, and that.

796
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,640
And one day I was sat at the top
of the stairs

797
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:00,800
and they were all talking.

798
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,000
And I kind of tuned in
<font color="

799
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,080
because they were talking
about my mum.

800
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,320
I thought,
why are they talking about her?

801
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,720
I realised that they were talking
about her as if she was still alive.

802
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,200
They weren't saying "was",
they were saying "is".

803
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,000
<font color="
that, no, she's not dead,

804
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,480
she's actually alive somewhere.

805
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520
My uncle said, "Oh, I wonder if
she's still a practising Catholic."

806
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,920
I was like, "What?!"

807
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,880
I gleaned that she was alive first
and I saw it,

808
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,160
<font color="
I want to meet her."

809
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,760
And then when found out she was
Catholic I sort of nosedived again,

810
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,480
thinking, "Fuck me, I don't want to
meet her. I never want to hear her,

811
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,840
"I never want to see her," you know?

812
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,560
<font color="
blood running through my veins.

813
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,560
I couldn't comprehend why my dad -

814
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,000
why would he go and marry
a Catholic?

815
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,040
He was a good loyalist,
he was in the UDA,

816
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,040
he's got a band. Why would he go
<font color="

817
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,160
It was just all these things
overloading in my brain.

818
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,040
And also you had the Shankill
Butchers happening at this time.

819
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,720
This is all during the same period.

820
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,200
So when I heard I was a Catholic,
I'm thinking, fuck, you know,

821
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,760
<font color="
find out I'm a Catholic, they're

822
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,360
definitely going to come and get me
and cut me up. And they've only got

823
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,120
to trail me down the road cos I'm
right beside the community centre.

824
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,160
So all these conflicting emotions
<font color="

825
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,880
You know what I mean? I had this
dirty little secret I had to keep.

826
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,560
I couldn't tell anyone.
I couldn't talk to anyone about it.

827
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,200
Where's my mother? Where's my
mother? You know? Who is she?

828
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,200
Why is she not here? Why did she
<font color="

829
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,320
That is a brutal thing to live with.

830
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,000
Michael, do you have lots of
memories of your mum?

831
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:40,240
The only memory what really sticks
in my head was the night what

832
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:41,800
she was taken away.

833
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,360
And the last memories what I have
<font color="

834
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,840
the door with two women holding her
at each arm and she just turned

835
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,480
round and looked at us behind her.

836
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,000
And that's my last memory
of my mother.

837
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,480
Believe you me,
it's not a good memory to have.

838
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:15,800
<font color="
purse and her wedding rings.

839
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,760
I sort of realised, although
I was only 11 years of age,

840
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,520
that my mother was dead.

841
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,320
All that I wanted all my life
was to have my mother's body back.

842
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,800
Not knowing where her body is,

843
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,720
<font color="
every day of your life.

844
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,960
The IRA was ashamed of
what they'd done.

845
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,360
That's why it was all in denial,

846
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,040
that they didn't do it.

847
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,320
That's why all those excuses was
made by them, saying my mother

848
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,680
<font color="

849
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,000
Or our mother has living with
a UDA man up on Shankill Road.

850
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000
All these stories, I've heard
all these stories before.

851
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,920
They had to put it out
that she was an informant.

852
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,960
Who said she was an informant?
<font color="

853
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,560
They were saying that? Yeah.

854
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,640
So what the IRA was telling us
was lies.

855
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,440
We were told lies
for near enough 30 years.

856
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,640
ARCHIVE: In a surprise move tonight,
<font color="

857
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,080
that it has identified the graves
of nine people who were murdered

858
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,480
and buried in secret...

859
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,640
Over more than 30 years Jean
McConville's children have waited

860
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,600
for concrete evidence
about their mother's disappearance,

861
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,480
<font color="
they've finally been given it.

862
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,240
No-one will ever know what happened.

863
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,680
Um, only the people that were there
know what happened.

864
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,360
And, um, we'd like to think
there was compassion shown,

865
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,720
but then again, there wouldn't
<font color="

866
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,520
You just feel scared for her,

867
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,080
because what else
would she have felt?

868
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Me and my brothers and sisters
gave her a Christian burial,

869
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,520
which is deserved.

870
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,760
So we have a place where
we can go...

871
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:06,480
<font color="

872
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,280
It's as close as we're ever going
to be to our mother again, you know?

873
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,640
These things help you.

874
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,520
After 31 years
you know where she was buried.

875
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:31,120
It's not the first time
I says it was a sectarian murder.

876
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,960
<font color="
murdered by the IRA.

877
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,040
What more sectarian could you get?

878
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,240
I would like to say this and I
would...I would like it to stay in,

879
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,440
and I mean this, I mean this 100%.

880
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,320
See any person what was involved in

881
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
taking my mother away and
<font color="

882
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,520
I wouldn't wish this here
on any of their family.

883
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,160
And I really mean that.

884
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,080
Because you know.

885
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,680
I wouldn't...
I wouldn't like to see another

886
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,600
human being going through
what I've been through in life.

887
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,200
<font color="
at night and wonder

888
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,520
about what they did? Do they see
the faces of the dead people?

889
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,120
I kind of hope so.

890
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,000
I don't see how anybody can wake up
in the morning and kill anybody

891
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,960
for a political reason. Fuck!

892
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,920
<font color="

893
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,120
I have seven of my own hair left.

894
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,240
CHUCKLING

895
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,240
I've got a life.

896
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,880
I've got a life that I never
imagined I would have

897
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,320
growing up first.

898
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:19,680
Am I hitting something here?
Yeah, that's the space-bar.

899
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,080
<font color="

900
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,600
HE LAUGHS

901
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,840
Och, no, I can't watch this!

902
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,400
I thought you going to show a clip
when I was pretty!

903
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,320
Apart from the recording studio,

904
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,560
the reality of Belfast's punk
rock scene is far removed

905
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,440
<font color="
of the gossip columns.

906
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,560
Greg Cowan,
by day a contract painter,

907
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,960
by night he's a vocalist
with The Outcasts.

908
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,640
MUSIC: The Cops Are Coming
by The Outcasts

909
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:01,720

<font color="

910
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,120
The Outcasts were one
of my favourite bands

911
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,040
at The Harp Bar, so they were.

912
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,480
The Harp Bar was a dreadful bar.

913
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,760
The Official IRA used to drink
downstairs.

914
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,720
They had wire grilles outside,
<font color="

915
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:17,480
bombs at it,

916
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,360
where although you could go up
and hang a bomb on the wire grilles,

917
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,680
I never quite worked out that,
but it was just a really

918
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,560
run-down bar.

919
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,640
I remember going into town
<font color="

920
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,520
You had to navigate your way
from one side of town to the other

921
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,440
side of town.

922
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,680
There was hardly anybody about.
It was dark.

923
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,360
There would have been
security forces present,

924
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,520
whether that be the Army
<font color="

925
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,200
I might have felt a bit anxious,
just that kind of fear

926
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,000
that you might have felt that

927
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,560
you might have been
the target of something, because,

928
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,560
you know, there was a group of you.

929
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,120
But once you got to The Harp Bar
<font color="

930
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,400
put at the door,
you walked in and, you know,

931
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,240
all those worries and things,

932
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:15,800
I mean, cos you knew
you were in a safe place.

933
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,160
I mean, it was a dump.

934
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,920
But it was our dump.

935
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,360
Your feet sticking to the floor
<font color="

936
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,520
Ashtrays that weren't emptied.

937
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,880
And the toilets, the toilets were
like something out of Trainspotting.

938
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,000
I mean, they were horrible,
so they were!

939
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,040
INAUDIBLE

940
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,240
It was a madhouse,
<font color="

941
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:45,920
This was not the modelly crowd.

942
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,640
This was guys from Belfast.

943
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,520
Guys, you know, who were turning
their back on their friends

944
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,280
who they'd run about with
for years

945
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,680
who might have been now joining
<font color="

946
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,400
they were saying no
to all that there and moving on.

947
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,040
There was a lot of punks
whose fathers

948
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,040
were well-known paramilitaries,
or brothers were.

949
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,360
But when you went down
to The Harp Bar and you went

950
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,280
<font color="
religion went out the window.

951
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,880
I don't think I ever heard anybody
talk, certainly about religion

952
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,800
and what was going on out there.

953
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,960
In there
it was all about the music.

954
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,920
It was all about the fashion.

955
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,760
<font color="

956
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,080
And it was all about
who was playing that night.

957
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,680
For the first time you were meeting
people from a different area

958
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,800
and a different religion.

959
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,440
There's still people called each
other, you know, if you fell out

960
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,040
<font color="
or something, you know,

961
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,400
like it wasn't, as I said,
everybody didn't just walk in,

962
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,120
Protestants on this side, hug all
the Catholics on the other side,

963
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:45,800
you know?
But it did, it broke barriers.

964
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,960
<font color="
for one person,

965
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,280
then it's worthwhile,
like, isn't it?

966
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,680
I mean, one person,
it's only a tiny particle,

967
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,680
but it's going to create
for a better situation here.

968
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,080
And, like, punk's done that for me.

969
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,520
<font color="
culture and I started mixing

970
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,160
with Catholics and that, but that
was, like, an eye opener for me

971
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,440
because even though I'd grown up
hating them with a passion,

972
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,680
I didn't understand them.

973
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,320
But hanging out with them
<font color="

974
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,680
that we weren't that different
from each other after all,

975
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,360
and we liked the same music
and the same style.

976
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:29,760
And we had so much in common.

977
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,400
And from that point onwards,
I started to change my attitude

978
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,240
<font color="
of that entrenched prejudice

979
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:37,600
of my childhood.

980
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,040
You know, I was still dealing
with all the personal problems

981
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,960
in my life and all the madness
going on around me in Belfast.

982
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,440
So the music and the drugs, you
<font color="

983
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,040
some escapism from the madness.

984
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,240
And don't forget, then, you know,
boys, girls are marrying.

985
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:58,880
I myself met my wife
in The Harp Bar.

986
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,200
He'll start telling you
I was a groupie and everything.

987
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,080
<font color="
You were a groupie!

988
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,720
I only started going out with him
cos he had a car

989
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,080
and it was a lift home.
That's also true!

990
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,400
Did you ever know what religion
I was? I always wanted to marry

991
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:18,840
<font color="

992
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,360
"That one there, she's quite
a pretty one, she'll do."

993
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,160
No, of course not!
You didn't discuss...

994
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:24,920
You found that out afterwards. Yeah.

995
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,480
That's one of the points they made
about the whole thing, yeah.

996
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,040
<font color="
were always very close together

997
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,760
which was a bit of a giveaway!

998
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,080
SHE LAUGHS

999
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,640
Love conquers all.

1000
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,440
Just really a lot of people
did not like what was going on.

1001
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:03,720
I got threatened all the time from
<font color="

1002
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:05,320
Why were they threatening you?

1003
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,680
Cos we were bringing the kids
together and they didn't like it.

1004
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,800
ARCHIVE: In a derelict side street
between Roman Catholic

1005
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,960
and Protestant areas, three men were
found shot in the head.

1006
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,160
<font color="

1007
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,960
with this pitchfork
stuck in the back of her neck.

1008
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,760
The only reason that I know why

1009
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,360
our sons died...were because

1010
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,440
they were Catholics.

1011
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,040
Punks were very brave
because those kids lived in areas

1012
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,640
<font color="
by the paramilitaries.

1013
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,760
To go down to The Harp Bar and mix
with the people from the other tribe

1014
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,520
was not what they wanted.

1015
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,360
They wanted division,
they wanted hatred

1016
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,960
and they wanted to be able
to control it.

1017
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,320
<font color="
I lived near the Armagh Road.

1018
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,160
People used to call it Murder Mile.

1019
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,280
And a friend of mine said,

1020
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,440
"If you walked down the right-hand
side at night,

1021
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,760
"it meant you were a Catholic.

1022
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,400
"If you walked down
the left-hand side

1023
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:16,880
<font color="

1024
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,400
"But Terri Hooley
and his band of merry men

1025
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,120
"always danced down
the middle of the road."

1026
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,240
And that's what we tried to do,
dance down the middle of the road.

1027
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,120
Ladies and gentlemen,
<font color="

1028
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,120
for Mr Terri Hooley?

1029
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,120
I always wanted to be able to say
to my children when they said,

1030
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,520
"Daddy, what did you do
during the Troubles?"

1031
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,720
I wanted to say
that I partied a lot.

1032
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,880
I drank, did drugs,

1033
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,720
<font color="

1034
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:55,520
and I didn't kill anybody.

1035
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,360
What did sectarianism do
to your life, James?

1036
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,240
Ultimately?

1037
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:14,960
Ultimately it destroyed my life.

1038
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,440
Had you done things
you couldn't forgive yourself?

1039
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:19,480
Aye.

1040
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:22,600
<font color="

1041
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,080
I can remember a guy that I was
in jail with and he told me

1042
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,560
of how he was sent to kill
a shopkeeper.

1043
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,040
They went into the shop,
the shopkeeper come out,

1044
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,920
and he pulled out his gun
and shot the man.

1045
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,280
<font color="
dwelling opened again and in walked

1046
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,040
the man's wife.

1047
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,960
And he shot her as well.

1048
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:02,720
She now falls down dead
on top of her husband.

1049
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,480
He goes to walk away and the door
opens again and in walks their

1050
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,200
<font color="

1051
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:20,360
He tries to kill the daughter
and fires 10 or 12 shots.

1052
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,320
I went away from him that day,
you know,

1053
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,480
and I went back to my six-man cell

1054
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,360
and I lay down and I thought...

1055
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,040
"Can't do it, James.

1056
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:37,880
<font color="

1057
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,280
"This is not...
I didn't sign up for us.

1058
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,480
"Shooting a woman and a chil...
Fuck, this is not me."

1059
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,280
And I made a deal with myself
that day.

1060
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,600
I says, "Whatever's left of my
miserable life, I will never,

1061
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,880
<font color="

1062
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,840
"That is me finished, out.

1063
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:55,880
"Finite. No mas."

1064
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:06,160
When you dumped your sectarianism,
did you shed it in one go?

1065
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,640
Jesus, that's a hard question.

1066
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,760
I think it faded away, you know.

1067
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,440
We have a saying
<font color="

1068
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,120
like snow off a summer ditch.

1069
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,880
The snow doesn't vanish in an hour,
but it slowly melts away

1070
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,760
and then you turn around
and all of a sudden it's all gone.

1071
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:32,600
You know?

1072
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,680
Sorry. It's very personal.

1073
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,800
<font color="

1074
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,280
But I really appreciate
you going back there.

1075
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:48,840
Uh-huh.

1076
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,920
Is that a...?

1077
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,440
Yeah, cut.

1078
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:04,240
Mm.

1079
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,080
How are you getting on
with your questions? Good.

1080
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,160
<font color="
with your biscuit?

1081
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:17,280
Very good.

1082
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:55,800
We're political prisoners!

1083
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,400
We'd put shit on the wall
and piss out the door.

1084
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,360
We were doing something positive.

1085
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,520
They've turned their violence
against themselves

1086
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,600
<font color="
to death.

1087
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,840
GUN HEALTH

1088
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,040
I hated every minute of being
a prisoner's wife.

1089
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,360
I never knew the word hate
until I got married,

1090
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,120
until this happened.

1091
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,680
To watch exclusive interviews about
<font color="

1092
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,440
..and follow the links
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